So what I said last time (that shit was hard to find):
Yeah I definitely understand where you're coming from. The getting back into crossfit used to be a goal of mine, but that's definitely changed.
I know that most people on this thread are pro-crossfit, and while I'm definitely not anti-crossfit, I think that there are better ways to achieve my own goals. I'm really enjoying getting stronger, and while crossfit will definitely improve my conditioning, my strength will definitely not go up nearly as fast.
(end quote)
More: (hopefully this can create a discussion): There's just no way to get as strong when you're doing intense crossfit workouts. A lot of people love crossfit because they want to be really fit and have decent strength, but honestly when you have a full time job, and you have like 5-6 hours a week to train, you have to decide to either work on strength or conditioning.
Most elite CFers (top in the CF games) have something like a 400-450 squat. I'm there right now, and I'm nowhere close in terms of conditioning compared to them. CF football is pretty good in the sense that it forces you to focus more on strength, and is essentially starting strength lite, but there's still a heavy conditioning element (which is also why CFFB's strength workouts are generally shorter).
My point is, I like being stronger more than I like being super well conditioned. It's like me asking you "why don't you do more strength workouts"?
I hear two different Bonak voices in my head...one is saying "c'mon Adam, question and debate everything that everyone says"...and the other is saying "Adam, you're such an asshole". I'll go w/ Bonak Voice #1 in the spirit of discussion. Please see below my responses to your post, Yang.
You: "I think that there are better ways to achieve my own goals. I'm really enjoying getting stronger, and while crossfit will definitely improve my conditioning, my strength will definitely not go up nearly as fast." Me: I respect that your goal is to get stronger, and I agree that doing crossfit will not make your stength go up as fast as it might otherwise. My challenge to this is 'why'? Why is your goal only to get stronger? Crossfit is constantly varied, functional movements performed at high intensity. It makes you prepared for anything that life can throw at you. It increases your work capacity across broad modal and time domains. I've done strength training programs in the past and all it did was give me superficial muscles. Doing only strength training neglected my mobility, endurance, stamina, speed, accuracy, etc. Just because your stength goes up does not mean that your ability to do more work goes up with it.
You: "A lot of people love crossfit because they want to be really fit and have decent strength, but honestly when you have a full time job, and you have like 5-6 hours a week to train, you have to decide to either work on strength or conditioning." Me: I do not agree that "you have to decide to either work on strength or conditioning". Why is it black and white? Why can't I have and train for both? When you have an overall bias toward either strength or conditioning, it hurts your overall GPP. Case in point, Matt Chan who placed second at this year's crossfit games. He had a strength bias in his training, plateau'd the year before and placed 10th, got a coach who started programming longer workouts, and BOOM, second at the games this year. Did doing somewhat longer metcons hurt his strength? Admittedly, he said his strength numbers didn't go up very much...but, and this is a pretty accurate quote from Matt Chan, "once you a achieve a certain level of elite strength, getting stronger doesn't make you a better/fitter athlete." Crossfit is a strength AND conditioning program, not just a conditioning program. And don't get me wrong, I love stength training. Anytime I plateau on my metcons, I know that strength training those same muscle groups will stimulate my ability to go harder and faster the next time I have a metcon with those muscles. Finally, if I have only 5-6 hours per week, which is about what I have too, damn right I'm doing crossfit because I know that it's the best bang for my buck out there.
You: My point is, I like being stronger more than I like being super well conditioned. It's like me asking you "why don't you do more strength workouts"? Me: Saying "why don't you do more strength workouts" doesn't acknowledge that crossfit is more than just a conditioning program. My goal is GPP because it prepares me, as Chen pointed out, for anything. I'm not trying to specialize. I'm saying, why do you want to specialize? If you want to compete in olympic/power lifting, then yes, you should specialize and I am not going to debate you. But as you pointed out, you have a full-time job and 5-6 hours a week to workout, so being honest with yourself, can you really excel at a specialty in only 5-6 hours per week? Because using crossfit, you can get really fit in only 5-6 hours per week but you'll have to concede that what you want out of a training program is to be generally fit.
I'm on yang's side on this one. It is practical to be truly strong. Say life throws some kind of metcon at you, something like you need to travel X distance through the woods by foot in a hurry. I can do that, but not as fast as a mainsiter. Say life throws some strength feat at you, like pull a fallen log off someone, you either can do that or you cannot, and it's based solely on how strong you are. I think a truly solid strength foundation (something along the lines of 500/400/300 dead/squat/bench) is paramount to building GPP, otherwise you're simply incapable of some feats of strength that could pop up.
Why is your goal to get decent at everything? Crossfit simply optimizes training for a certain perceived notion of being "fit". If that's your goal, then crossfit is right for you. My goal is to get super strong, and to do powerlifting meets (which I will be doing in about a month). Training towards that goal seems pretty reasonable to me.
The other thing is, I'm skeptical of the whole "specializing in not specializing" thing. In all of history, we as human beings have thrived due to specialization. For example, if you wanna do a marathon, then train for a marathon! Probably don't lift weights too much (I've done two marathons so I know what's up). If you want to train for a triathlon, then run/bike/swim. Muscle ups probably won't help you that much. If you want to play flag football, then train like a football player. If you want to get all the ladies you should probably be bodybuilding. I can't imagine a situation where you're playing like, 12 different sports (even though MB tries to do this) and have to be reasonably prepared for every single one.
My personal goals are that I want to be a decent powerlifter, and be conditioned enough to be active (hiking, intramurals, etc). It seems to me that my current strategy of 5/3/1 with conditioning is exactly right for this purpose.
Oh, and I got a 400 squat in about a year of starting strength. There's simply no way to get there that fast on CF. Honestly if you don't program more strength workouts yourself and just follow the CF mainsite WOD, I'd venture to say that you'll NEVER get there (unless you're very genetically gifted).
There just isn't enough stimulus to grow strength significantly when you only max out the squat like, once every few weeks. And yes, there is squatting during the metcons, but squatting 135 for 100 reps will not get you to 315, ever.
Agree with everything Yang said. Crossfit will get you pretty good at a whole bunch of crap. You'll never be world class in a single modality, and you'll never beat someone who is world class in their modality, but if you're a legit CFer chances are you could beat that individual in every other modality.
Glassman gave the example of competing against elite level cyclists, gymnasts, and I think power lifters. He said he would never be able to beat an elite level individual in any of their respective disciplines, but he could hold his own/not embarass himself. And if he challenged the cyclist to a competition in gymnastics and power lifting, he would beat the cyclist in both.
why don't you do any metcons/crossfit style workouts?
ReplyDeleteI feel like you've asked him this before. Yang, maybe you should write a post detailing your reasons for choosing pure strength to strength + metcon.
ReplyDeleteyeah i was gonna say, didnt you ask this a month ago?
ReplyDeletei didn't see a response when i asked it a month ago.
ReplyDeletestop being a noob and get the comments emailed to you
ReplyDeletei checked a day later for a response and didn't see one. i'm not subscribing by email...ever...
ReplyDeleteI love the email subscription.
ReplyDeleteMe too!
ReplyDeleteSo what I said last time (that shit was hard to find):
Yeah I definitely understand where you're coming from. The getting back into crossfit used to be a goal of mine, but that's definitely changed.
I know that most people on this thread are pro-crossfit, and while I'm definitely not anti-crossfit, I think that there are better ways to achieve my own goals. I'm really enjoying getting stronger, and while crossfit will definitely improve my conditioning, my strength will definitely not go up nearly as fast.
(end quote)
More: (hopefully this can create a discussion):
There's just no way to get as strong when you're doing intense crossfit workouts. A lot of people love crossfit because they want to be really fit and have decent strength, but honestly when you have a full time job, and you have like 5-6 hours a week to train, you have to decide to either work on strength or conditioning.
Most elite CFers (top in the CF games) have something like a 400-450 squat. I'm there right now, and I'm nowhere close in terms of conditioning compared to them. CF football is pretty good in the sense that it forces you to focus more on strength, and is essentially starting strength lite, but there's still a heavy conditioning element (which is also why CFFB's strength workouts are generally shorter).
My point is, I like being stronger more than I like being super well conditioned. It's like me asking you "why don't you do more strength workouts"?
I hear two different Bonak voices in my head...one is saying "c'mon Adam, question and debate everything that everyone says"...and the other is saying "Adam, you're such an asshole". I'll go w/ Bonak Voice #1 in the spirit of discussion. Please see below my responses to your post, Yang.
DeleteYou: "I think that there are better ways to achieve my own goals. I'm really enjoying getting stronger, and while crossfit will definitely improve my conditioning, my strength will definitely not go up nearly as fast."
Me: I respect that your goal is to get stronger, and I agree that doing crossfit will not make your stength go up as fast as it might otherwise. My challenge to this is 'why'? Why is your goal only to get stronger? Crossfit is constantly varied, functional movements performed at high intensity. It makes you prepared for anything that life can throw at you. It increases your work capacity across broad modal and time domains. I've done strength training programs in the past and all it did was give me superficial muscles. Doing only strength training neglected my mobility, endurance, stamina, speed, accuracy, etc. Just because your stength goes up does not mean that your ability to do more work goes up with it.
You: "A lot of people love crossfit because they want to be really fit and have decent strength, but honestly when you have a full time job, and you have like 5-6 hours a week to train, you have to decide to either work on strength or conditioning."
Me: I do not agree that "you have to decide to either work on strength or conditioning". Why is it black and white? Why can't I have and train for both? When you have an overall bias toward either strength or conditioning, it hurts your overall GPP. Case in point, Matt Chan who placed second at this year's crossfit games. He had a strength bias in his training, plateau'd the year before and placed 10th, got a coach who started programming longer workouts, and BOOM, second at the games this year. Did doing somewhat longer metcons hurt his strength? Admittedly, he said his strength numbers didn't go up very much...but, and this is a pretty accurate quote from Matt Chan, "once you a achieve a certain level of elite strength, getting stronger doesn't make you a better/fitter athlete." Crossfit is a strength AND conditioning program, not just a conditioning program. And don't get me wrong, I love stength training. Anytime I plateau on my metcons, I know that strength training those same muscle groups will stimulate my ability to go harder and faster the next time I have a metcon with those muscles. Finally, if I have only 5-6 hours per week, which is about what I have too, damn right I'm doing crossfit because I know that it's the best bang for my buck out there.
You: My point is, I like being stronger more than I like being super well conditioned. It's like me asking you "why don't you do more strength workouts"?
Me: Saying "why don't you do more strength workouts" doesn't acknowledge that crossfit is more than just a conditioning program. My goal is GPP because it prepares me, as Chen pointed out, for anything. I'm not trying to specialize. I'm saying, why do you want to specialize? If you want to compete in olympic/power lifting, then yes, you should specialize and I am not going to debate you. But as you pointed out, you have a full-time job and 5-6 hours a week to workout, so being honest with yourself, can you really excel at a specialty in only 5-6 hours per week? Because using crossfit, you can get really fit in only 5-6 hours per week but you'll have to concede that what you want out of a training program is to be generally fit.
I'm on yang's side on this one. It is practical to be truly strong. Say life throws some kind of metcon at you, something like you need to travel X distance through the woods by foot in a hurry. I can do that, but not as fast as a mainsiter. Say life throws some strength feat at you, like pull a fallen log off someone, you either can do that or you cannot, and it's based solely on how strong you are. I think a truly solid strength foundation (something along the lines of 500/400/300 dead/squat/bench) is paramount to building GPP, otherwise you're simply incapable of some feats of strength that could pop up.
DeleteWhy is your goal to get decent at everything? Crossfit simply optimizes training for a certain perceived notion of being "fit". If that's your goal, then crossfit is right for you. My goal is to get super strong, and to do powerlifting meets (which I will be doing in about a month). Training towards that goal seems pretty reasonable to me.
DeleteThe other thing is, I'm skeptical of the whole "specializing in not specializing" thing. In all of history, we as human beings have thrived due to specialization. For example, if you wanna do a marathon, then train for a marathon! Probably don't lift weights too much (I've done two marathons so I know what's up). If you want to train for a triathlon, then run/bike/swim. Muscle ups probably won't help you that much. If you want to play flag football, then train like a football player. If you want to get all the ladies you should probably be bodybuilding. I can't imagine a situation where you're playing like, 12 different sports (even though MB tries to do this) and have to be reasonably prepared for every single one.
My personal goals are that I want to be a decent powerlifter, and be conditioned enough to be active (hiking, intramurals, etc). It seems to me that my current strategy of 5/3/1 with conditioning is exactly right for this purpose.
Oh, and I got a 400 squat in about a year of starting strength. There's simply no way to get there that fast on CF. Honestly if you don't program more strength workouts yourself and just follow the CF mainsite WOD, I'd venture to say that you'll NEVER get there (unless you're very genetically gifted).
ReplyDeleteThere just isn't enough stimulus to grow strength significantly when you only max out the squat like, once every few weeks. And yes, there is squatting during the metcons, but squatting 135 for 100 reps will not get you to 315, ever.
ReplyDeleteAgree with everything Yang said. Crossfit will get you pretty good at a whole bunch of crap. You'll never be world class in a single modality, and you'll never beat someone who is world class in their modality, but if you're a legit CFer chances are you could beat that individual in every other modality.
ReplyDeleteGlassman gave the example of competing against elite level cyclists, gymnasts, and I think power lifters. He said he would never be able to beat an elite level individual in any of their respective disciplines, but he could hold his own/not embarass himself. And if he challenged the cyclist to a competition in gymnastics and power lifting, he would beat the cyclist in both.