First time maxing out with these lifts
Deadlift: 295#
Bench: 195#
and, from last week:
Squat: 220#
Press: 135#
Alright! Those numbers look like a normal human! DL > Squat > Bench > Press.
I have a question about DLs. What is the powerlifting standard for a "rep." Do you only need to pull, straighten your legs and hips and stand up with it? Or, do you need to go down with it as well (say, past your knees)? My 1RM above was only the pull; I ended up dropping it out of fear of potentially hurting myself. This was a PR by like 50# so I didn't know if I could handle the descent.
I've been thinking about Wendler vs. SS lately. I'm hoping JC and ysu will chime in here. The real problem for me is that I want to both (1) gain strength and (2) continue doing CF metcons and rock climbing. These two goals conflict with each other. It seems that, for a novice, SS is the best way to begin. 3 workouts a week, with a 2 day rest between "cycles." The system is programmed with the rest days in mind. Rippetoe is all over the internet lambasting unsuspecting individuals who try to do SS and still keep up with their conditioning. I understand where he's coming from, but I think my goals are different than the goals of his program. I am not trying to maximize my strength gains -- I am only trying to increase them.
At first, Wendler seemed like the right choice. He talks about a 2x/week schedule (which fits in my schedule) in his book. The weights are lighter and don't scale up as fast as SS. It's a longterm program, with slower gains. The more I read about how novices get build strength really fast, the more I want to try a 2x/week starting strength program (increasing the weights at a slower rate than the prescribed SS, but faster than Wendler). My thought is that I can make some big gains early doing 2x/week SS. Once I hit a wall, then I can switch to Wendler (or consider more rest, an extra lifting day and less metcons). On Sunday, I'll do my first SS workout (squat, press, DL). Of course, I'll be listening to my body to see if this is even sustainable. The last thing I want to do is get injured.
Good job on those lifts man, sounds like you're stronger than you realized. The powerlifting competition standards require the deadlift to be lowered to the ground under control in both hands, as in, you can't drop it. I think once you get more comfortable pulling 80-90% of your 1RM you'll be more comfortable lowering the bar in your hands without feeling like your spine is doing shatter.
ReplyDeleteOn to the SS debate - I imagine we've been reading a lot of the same CF + SS discussions, which basically say doing both together is stupid: choose one or the other.
Also there seem to be a lot of people that get pissed off when others try to modify existing strength programs, whether it be Wendler, SS, TM, Madcow, etc, to suit their individual needs, i.e. modifying reps, movements, assistance, loads or any combination. I'll admit I'm totally bastardizing the Wendler 531 program by cutting out all assistance and replacing it with a cluster f of CF, Oly lifting, and some marriage of the two. So while I say I am doing Wendler lifts what I'm really doing is stealing the percentages and rep schemes Wendler perscribes. For simplicity purposes I will continue referring to my strength work as Wendler, even though it really isn't the complete package and someone out there will argue that you can't be a partial vegetarian/vegan/virgin etc.
I agree a linear progression program like SS is ideal for novices looking to maximize the "easy" gains. And it is important that you don't expect nor necessarily desire exponential gains like many SS novice lifters see. I think a 2x a week "SS" program is manageable. You WILL get stronger lifting relatively heavy weights (70-85ish% of 1RM) consistently. It's science. Seriously. And I agree you will probably get stronger faster doing "SS" + XYZ than doing "Wendler" + XYZ. The caveat, and this is just as important as getting to the gym and working your ass off is you need to be eating and resting enough. Read: averaging 5.5 hours of sleep a night is not going to cut it. You're going to need to find a way to juggle all three activities while getting adequate recovery in between and eating enough high quality food.
I agree with JC. I think that these "programs" are just specific applications of some very basic principles. You need to lift heavy (85%+) and with enough volume. How you accumulate the volume probably doesn't matter too much. The SS template is actually pretty good for 2x a week (squat/bench/power clean on day 1, squat/press/deadlift on day 2).
ReplyDeleteBasically I think you should try it, and if you find that you are tired all the time, your lifts are decreasing, etc, then you're probably overtraining and you should drop some stuff.
Another potential avenue is to devote a couple of months to eke out your linear gains (honestly with those numbers you won't have THAT much of it left). Then go back to CF+rock climbing+ strength maintenance.
ReplyDeleteWith 2 months of dedicated 3x a week SS, you can probably hit like, 315 squat, 405 deadlift, 155 press, 225 bench or something. That'd be very respectable and definitely plenty for whatever CF wods would program.
Can someone give me a quick run down of this Wendler vs SS stuff?
ReplyDeleteHere's my bastardized cliff note version of [Jim] Wendler['s] 5/3/1 program:
ReplyDelete3-4 days of lifting per week, 4 week cycle - squat, deadlift, bench press, [standing shoulder] press + assistance work (probably stuff like pullups and rows) which I've replaced with CF metcons
Week 1
3 sets of 5 (3x5) - set 1 at 65% 1RM, 2 at 75%, 3 at 85%
Week 2
3 sets of 3 (3x3) - set 1 at 70%, 2 at 80%, 3 at 90%
Week 3
3 sets - set 1, 5 reps at 75%; set 2, 3 reps at 85%; set 3, 1 rep at 95%
Week 4 - deload week to prep for next cycle
3x5 at lighter weights, I think like 40, 50, and 60% - basically warm up weights.
Repeat weeks 1-4 adding max 10# to lower body lifts and 5# to upper body lifts. One aspect of this program I find interesting is in each of the first three weeks the final set is recommended to be an AMRAP. For example in week 3 the program only calls for 1 rep at 95% in your final set but it's really 1+ as many reps as you can squeeze out at that weight. I think this aspect keeps things interesting and gives you something to shoot for other than just jacking up weights.
--------
I'm not very well versed in [Mark Rippetoe's] Starting Strength program so I'll do what I can to scratch the surface. SS is an example of a linear progression program where the weights on your lifts increase linearly. SS and perhaps linear progression programs in general seem to produce relatively large gains in not that much time for individuals who still have a lot of strength potential to realize. Ysu has a post somewhere up in here with his before and after numbers after 9-10 months of dedicated SS. Basically, sht went through the roof.
Workout A
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press
1x5 Deadlift
Workout B
3x5 Squat
3x5 Press
5x3 Power cleans
Workouts A and B alternate on 3 non-consecutive days per week.
I think you add 5-10# to each lift each time you train. You also start out working with well below your actual 5RM so you don't plateau in like the second week. (Wendler also recommends something similar - working off 90% of your actual 1RM so you don't prematurely stall your progress).